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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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from Australia for science and reason

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[Music]

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yes it's the skeptics own podcast

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episode number 526

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for the 18th of November 2018

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richardsaunders here with you from

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Sydney Australia Sydney Australia

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doesn't know what to think about this

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time of the year some days it's cold

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some days it's hot

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sometimes it's raining sometimes it's

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not it sounds like a dr. Seuss book

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doesn't it coming up on this week's show

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I catch up with susan gerbic from

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guerrilla skepticism on wikipedia and a

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success story one of the things that the

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guerrilla skepticism people have been

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chasing and a story I've been keeping an

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eye on for a while is this facilitated

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communication and the universities that

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still push this outdated idea susan will

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bring us up to date on this story and as

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i said it's it's a tale of success good

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skeptical activism following that it's

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more from skeptical australia skeptic on

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2018 here in sydney about three weeks

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ago maynard chats to some magicians any

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magicians out there listening to this

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show or if you know any magicians they

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may find this very interesting indeed we

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had a wonderful entertainer come up from

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melbourne to do magic at the convention

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dinner skeptic on dinner which knocked

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everybody socks off in fact maybe that

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was one of his tricks knocking people's

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socks off I don't know he did some

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wonderful card routines and other

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routines and his name is Nick Kay may

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not also chats to magician Peter Rogers

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Peter Rogers is a longtime member of the

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Australian skeptics here in Sydney

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he was the resident magician on the

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committee for many many many years he

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still is part of the broader

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organization and if we ever have any

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queries to do with magic he's the man we

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turn to magicians and skepticism have a

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long association of course we think of

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James Randi especially in the early days

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it was the magicians who could see some

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of the tricks of the so-called psychics

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like

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design duplication as its called where

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somebody draws a secret drawing seals it

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in an envelope but the so-called psychic

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can still magically magically determine

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what's in the envelope and re-create the

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drawing Peeta is also a history buff

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when it comes to magic especially magic

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in Australia and I learned a lot from

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this interview and I hope you will too

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Nick Kay and Peter Rogers the magician's

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coming up a little later on with Maynard

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then to round off the show we've got

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Michelle Franklin now relatively new

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reporter from Darwin she's going to be

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talking about biocontrol misses where

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the science comes into the skeptic zone

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when we talk about the yeah the podcast

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for science and reason this is the

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science part biocontrol

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and cane toads and when I was young I

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lived up near where Heidi Roberts in the

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raw skeptic lives up in the north coast

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area of New South Wales and cane toads

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were everywhere so I think was it

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especially during the summer months

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big ugly toads that are an introduced

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species well Michelle's going to be

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talking about that in general biocontrol

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and Michelle would like you to know that

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her report today is a summary of the

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presentations she gave at skeptic camp

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in fact it was a skeptic camp in

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Brisbane in 2016 what a wonderful thing

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skeptic camp is sadly we didn't have one

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in Sydney this year maybe we should put

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our socks on but were blown off by the

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magician's earlier and get to organizing

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a skeptic camp in Sydney for 2019 I've

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learned a lot of interesting things by

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going to skeptic camps over the years

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especially here in Sydney and I noticed

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there around the world and in fact I'll

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link to skeptic camp in this week's show

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notes under the under the segment here

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for Michelle Franklin a few more

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announcements from me at the end of the

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show but now it's time for me to run

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downstairs and since it's such a nice

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day I'm going to have some champagne

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white chocolate and a little bit of

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cheese with the chili ghost pepper

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cheese mmm while I do that I hope you

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enjoy the skeptic zone

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[Music]

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[Applause]

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and joining me now all the way from

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Salinas California as she does from time

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to time on the skeptic zone its susan

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gerbic from guerrilla skepticism on

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wikipedia hello Susan

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hello Richard hello all you wonderful

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listeners out there oh I'm sure the

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listeners like being called wonderful I

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think that wonders are great great now

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Susan a couple of weeks months ago I

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haven't got the exact date on my

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fingertips here we spoke about a very

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concerning issue which is known as

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facilitated communication can you give

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our audience a quick update to what that

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means exactly facilitated communication

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is an outdated pseudoscience tactic used

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in to communicate with people who are

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non communicative people who have been

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unable to communicate for whatever

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reason there's somebody come comes along

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called the facilitator who will guide

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their hand over a board of letters for

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example or study their eyes and say

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they're looking at this letter and

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looking at that letter and seem to

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interpret what the the person is trying

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to say absolutely it's the Ouija board

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effect and some people will call it the

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clever Hans method and other people say

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it's like swinging a pendulum in some

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cases these people are not communicating

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they are the facilitator is actually the

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person who's looking at the keyboard or

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the letter board and interpreting what

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is being said it's it does not work and

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there's a huge description on the

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Wikipedia page for facilitated

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communication if anybody really wants

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more details we have case studies on

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there as well why it appears to work and

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it doesn't well it's a pseudoscience

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that was discredited over 30 years ago

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and many universities in the United

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States continue to support it by

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teaching classes

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allowing workshops having some of the

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faculty run classes and give credit to

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the students for taking the classes so

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about April of this year I formed a

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group with some very amazing people who

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decided that we were done with that

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it's a low-hanging fruit it's been

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discredited years ago we need to hold

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these universities responsible and so

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what we did is we created a very very

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well-written professional letter with

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over 30 professionals most of with PhDs

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after their name who are in the medical

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field the education field autism

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communication many from Australia

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actually mm-hmm now at this very

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professional letter to the University of

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Northern Iowa which had a workshop that

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it was going to be running a month or so

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later in United States so we sent the

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letter to them they wrote us back saying

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that's nice and they proceeded with

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their conference and they said that they

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were going to have another conference in

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2019 and it was their fifth one they ran

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so we called in the media we've got the

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media involved especially local media

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plus many people in the skeptic

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community wrote and tweeted to the

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University and we were relentless there

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because there was many newspaper

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articles well not newspaper but you know

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media articles printed about the

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university supporting facilitated

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communication their Wikipedia page it

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was obviously had to be changed to say

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that they supported facilitated

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communication and after a while they

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finally relented and said we're not

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going to have facilitated communication

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at their university anymore and we have

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since moved on to other universities and

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just today we had a reporter went to

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talk to the University of Northern Iowa

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and said what's going on over there and

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they said we and they officially

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announced that they will no longer be

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supporting facilitated communication and

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basically they said leave us alone you

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know just don't bother us anymore we're

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like okay thank you so much we did ask

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them if they had because we know they

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still have some faculty on staff but do

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teach facilitated communication and we

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asked them through the reporter and they

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said that they they aren't supporting it

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so we're going to keep an eye on this

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University

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and we're going to go ahead and go after

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other universities and use the same

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formula of asking them politely giving

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them a very professionally worded letter

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of intent thing that you know this is a

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discredit to practice we the undersigned

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all thirty or so people who are experts

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in this field say that this is not a

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good idea to do and if they don't in

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their practice then we will go to the

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local media and then the bigger media

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and and pretty much shame them into

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ending the practice with facilitated

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communication the article that just came

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out today is going to be able to be

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something that we could use to other

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universities you know as a way of saying

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look University of Northern Iowa into

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their practice

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why don't you because I think that will

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be helpful because the University of

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Northern Iowa has ended it and if nobody

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really wants to be the last University

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out there still practicing pseudoscience

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so this is would you say this is another

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example of guerrilla skepticism at work

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or is it broader than this it is

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guerrilla skepticism because it is

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taking the average person's passion to

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focus on one specific problem in the

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world absolutely we're not going to be

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able to stop all pseudoscience and all

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universities with this one tactic but

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what we're trying to do is we're trying

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to show people how to narrowly pick one

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area and focus on it and end it and then

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from there take what you've learned and

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then move to the next

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pseudoscience or the next university or

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the next project I think that people

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these things work best when we're narrow

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clearly define goals with very small

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groups of people working on it as well

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we find that this has been very

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successful in a guerrilla way Justin

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that were small batches of targeted

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attacks that sounds very aggressive but

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yeah it shouldn't be aggressive now I

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think I think I know what you mean it's

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it's a concentrated effort it's people

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focusing on the topic at hand and

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getting the job done which i think is

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terrific and by the way I guess it's

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time for a little update how is

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guerrilla skepticism doing generally oh

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my gosh we've added quite a few new

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editors after saikhan this year we were

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also at the Australian Conference as

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well as it was a fabulous time we have

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just added our seven hundred and

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twentieth Wikipedia page and we we've

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just hit thirty three point seven

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million page views Wow there are quite

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quite a difference we're really we're

277
00:12:58,170 --> 00:12:56,260
making a difference a little at a time

278
00:12:59,880 --> 00:12:58,180
you know we're as I say we're not going

279
00:13:02,700 --> 00:12:59,890
to completely rewrite Wikipedia right

280
00:13:04,950 --> 00:13:02,710
away and get fantastic information on

281
00:13:07,790 --> 00:13:04,960
everything on every paranormal topic

282
00:13:10,500 --> 00:13:07,800
everywhere it's a it's an astronomical

283
00:13:14,670 --> 00:13:10,510
project plus the fact we're trying to do

284
00:13:16,380 --> 00:13:14,680
it in all languages but it's satisfying

285
00:13:19,740 --> 00:13:16,390
knowing that we're fighting back we're

286
00:13:21,450 --> 00:13:19,750
trying and just one page at a time we're

287
00:13:23,850 --> 00:13:21,460
working our way through it instead of

288
00:13:26,700 --> 00:13:23,860
saying it's insurmountable it can't be

289
00:13:28,740 --> 00:13:26,710
done we're saying yes this is a crazy

290
00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:28,750
idea to rewrite Wikipedia pages

291
00:13:33,870 --> 00:13:31,330
concerning science and pseudoscience but

292
00:13:36,330 --> 00:13:33,880
let's just get started one of the

293
00:13:38,850 --> 00:13:36,340
benefits of writing this letter to these

294
00:13:42,420 --> 00:13:38,860
universities in the way we have with the

295
00:13:45,810 --> 00:13:42,430
expert sighted on the the letter along

296
00:13:47,670 --> 00:13:45,820
with information on where the university

297
00:13:49,710 --> 00:13:47,680
can get better information if they need

298
00:13:53,220 --> 00:13:49,720
it is that we've we've put the

299
00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:53,230
universities on notice once they

300
00:13:58,069 --> 00:13:54,730
acknowledge receipt

301
00:14:01,920 --> 00:13:58,079
of our letter then in the future if

302
00:14:04,980 --> 00:14:01,930
anyone tries to sue the University for

303
00:14:07,590 --> 00:14:04,990
you know miss practices because of

304
00:14:10,500 --> 00:14:07,600
facilitated communication well they're

305
00:14:13,139 --> 00:14:10,510
liable because they now have officially

306
00:14:17,639 --> 00:14:13,149
been told that facilitated communication

307
00:14:20,519 --> 00:14:17,649
is harmful it is pseudoscience so if a

308
00:14:24,090 --> 00:14:20,529
lawyer is interested or a family is

309
00:14:26,430 --> 00:14:24,100
trying to sue the universities they can

310
00:14:28,829 --> 00:14:26,440
well susan gerbic once again thank you

311
00:14:31,590 --> 00:14:28,839
very much for the update it's good to

312
00:14:34,199 --> 00:14:31,600
know that this facilitated communication

313
00:14:35,519 --> 00:14:34,209
may be on the wane actually it's been

314
00:14:37,110 --> 00:14:35,529
around for far too long

315
00:14:38,850 --> 00:14:37,120
I remember hearing about it years and

316
00:14:41,730 --> 00:14:38,860
years and years ago and it's always been

317
00:14:44,129 --> 00:14:41,740
regarded with great suspicion so all

318
00:14:46,079 --> 00:14:44,139
power to you at guerrilla skepticism and

319
00:14:46,970 --> 00:14:46,089
if people want to find out more where

320
00:14:49,620 --> 00:14:46,980
can they go

321
00:14:51,300 --> 00:14:49,630
Facebook is the best place to find all

322
00:14:53,780 --> 00:14:51,310
the information just follow me on

323
00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:53,790
Facebook and we will update as needed

324
00:14:57,960 --> 00:14:56,050
alright there you are folks there's the

325
00:14:59,579 --> 00:14:57,970
clue Facebook I'll add a link in this

326
00:15:01,259 --> 00:14:59,589
week's show notes well another

327
00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:01,269
interesting story there folks from

328
00:15:05,100 --> 00:15:03,250
guerrilla skepticism on Wikipedia and

329
00:15:07,470 --> 00:15:05,110
susan gerbic all the way over there in

330
00:15:09,510 --> 00:15:07,480
Salinas California thank you very much

331
00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:09,520
thank you Richard

332
00:15:30,570 --> 00:15:27,870
Time Traveller's cursed paintings

333
00:15:32,940 --> 00:15:30,580
ghostly apparitions mysterious creatures

334
00:15:35,580 --> 00:15:32,950
the world is filled with incredible and

335
00:15:37,620 --> 00:15:35,590
seemingly inexplicable stories but often

336
00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:37,630
things are not what they seem

337
00:15:42,210 --> 00:15:39,850
if you are like me and you too want to

338
00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:42,220
learn how to discern fact from fiction I

339
00:15:47,820 --> 00:15:44,530
invite you to join me every two weeks on

340
00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:47,830
my youtube channel i am massimo Polydor

341
00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:49,810
oh and we'll investigate together and

342
00:15:58,800 --> 00:15:52,450
discover the truth behind many stranger

343
00:16:01,430 --> 00:15:58,810
stories to join massimo Polidoro every

344
00:16:10,830 --> 00:16:01,440
two weeks into youtube and look for

345
00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:10,840
stranger stories here's main our spooky

346
00:16:21,250 --> 00:16:18,790
well I'll just chat to our magician who

347
00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:21,260
is our actor knowledge and I'm sir mr.

348
00:16:25,150 --> 00:16:23,930
Nick Kay Hey now tell me what around

349
00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:25,160
Melbourne where would people see you

350
00:16:29,530 --> 00:16:26,690
performing normally well I perform

351
00:16:31,660 --> 00:16:29,540
regularly at holy moley which is a mini

352
00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:31,670
golf club mini golf uh nightclub

353
00:16:34,269 --> 00:16:32,930
actually yeah yeah you guys got a

354
00:16:36,490 --> 00:16:34,279
residency there recently and it's

355
00:16:38,140 --> 00:16:36,500
probably the most fun place you can come

356
00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:38,150
and see some magic if you'd be doing

357
00:16:41,590 --> 00:16:40,010
close-up stuff so is it cards in a bit

358
00:16:43,300 --> 00:16:41,600
of sleight of hand what do you do indeed

359
00:16:45,490 --> 00:16:43,310
close eye magic it to the highest order

360
00:16:46,780 --> 00:16:45,500
from mentalism to pickpocketing although

361
00:16:47,829 --> 00:16:46,790
I trying to announce there too often of

362
00:16:49,450 --> 00:16:47,839
us it just makes it harder to steal

363
00:16:51,130 --> 00:16:49,460
those watches but ultimately the

364
00:16:52,660 --> 00:16:51,140
close-up with coins cards anything I can

365
00:16:54,670 --> 00:16:52,670
borrow from people like rings phones

366
00:16:55,990 --> 00:16:54,680
because I'm always scared like when I'm

367
00:16:57,340 --> 00:16:56,000
around with the amazing Randi I'm always

368
00:16:58,870 --> 00:16:57,350
making checking my stuff in that because

369
00:17:00,670 --> 00:16:58,880
I know he can steal stuff if he wants to

370
00:17:02,260 --> 00:17:00,680
and I'm always scared magicians scare me

371
00:17:03,850 --> 00:17:02,270
because you've got talents beyond mortal

372
00:17:05,230 --> 00:17:03,860
people that's understandable and I try

373
00:17:07,090 --> 00:17:05,240
to debunk that and just say like and

374
00:17:08,590 --> 00:17:07,100
more importantly what I want to make

375
00:17:10,809 --> 00:17:08,600
sure that my audience has is a good time

376
00:17:12,970 --> 00:17:10,819
well I'm sure they will here actually

377
00:17:14,829 --> 00:17:12,980
what is your like Penn & Teller their

378
00:17:16,059 --> 00:17:14,839
ultimate act is the bullet catch that's

379
00:17:17,740 --> 00:17:16,069
the one they're known for have you got

380
00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:17,750
something at the equivalent of the

381
00:17:20,350 --> 00:17:19,250
bullet cap what's your big one that you

382
00:17:21,790 --> 00:17:20,360
would finish an act with if you had a

383
00:17:23,919 --> 00:17:21,800
proper stage show have you got something

384
00:17:27,100 --> 00:17:23,929
I have a few reputation makers well

385
00:17:28,930 --> 00:17:27,110
amongst the magic community I think my

386
00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:28,940
version of the invisible deck is quite

387
00:17:33,220 --> 00:17:31,850
popular yes and I also have a coin piece

388
00:17:34,419 --> 00:17:33,230
which I'm looking at some Midianites

389
00:17:35,919 --> 00:17:34,429
stay tight-lipped about this one because

390
00:17:38,230 --> 00:17:35,929
I do want to submit it to the good folks

391
00:17:40,210 --> 00:17:38,240
at fool us hoping that it might end up

392
00:17:41,890 --> 00:17:40,220
with me an opportunity to compete at for

393
00:17:43,780 --> 00:17:41,900
us in Las Vegas you should be on that

394
00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:43,790
show goes they love their close up now

395
00:17:47,140 --> 00:17:45,650
and it's it's a coin piece which is my

396
00:17:49,270 --> 00:17:47,150
favorite discipline of magic which I've

397
00:17:51,190 --> 00:17:49,280
shown to all of my heroes over the years

398
00:17:53,919 --> 00:17:51,200
the guy's the reason the very reason

399
00:17:55,780 --> 00:17:53,929
that I perform magic especially coin

400
00:17:57,910 --> 00:17:55,790
magic people like Erik Jones and and

401
00:17:59,440 --> 00:17:57,920
David Roth amazing guys and I've showed

402
00:18:01,930 --> 00:17:59,450
them this particular routine and they've

403
00:18:03,010 --> 00:18:01,940
gone I have no idea so I feel like

404
00:18:05,230 --> 00:18:03,020
that's in with a chance

405
00:18:08,020 --> 00:18:05,240
fingers crossed now chela when he was

406
00:18:09,490 --> 00:18:08,030
younger used to make a habit of palming

407
00:18:10,900 --> 00:18:09,500
everything when he was a young kid from

408
00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:10,910
his mum he'd like get their credit card

409
00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:13,250
and you carried around all day so the

410
00:18:15,730 --> 00:18:14,690
kind of level of dedication you need to

411
00:18:17,830 --> 00:18:15,740
be able to hide things well with

412
00:18:19,030 --> 00:18:17,840
close-up magic indeed it is I I'll be

413
00:18:21,250 --> 00:18:19,040
the type of guy that will actually hold

414
00:18:22,510 --> 00:18:21,260
out in palm position or just in various

415
00:18:25,390 --> 00:18:22,520
hold outs in my hand I've actually

416
00:18:27,769 --> 00:18:25,400
shaken hands with people at events while

417
00:18:29,629 --> 00:18:27,779
having things secretly permed in my

418
00:18:31,219 --> 00:18:29,639
I'll take it to the extent where I'll be

419
00:18:32,779 --> 00:18:31,229
driving from one place to another trying

420
00:18:34,580 --> 00:18:32,789
to see if I can actually make it all day

421
00:18:34,999 --> 00:18:34,590
without anyone noticing something in my

422
00:18:37,310 --> 00:18:35,009
hand

423
00:18:39,229 --> 00:18:37,320
I get a busy same piece for example now

424
00:18:41,149 --> 00:18:39,239
we got the best piece of magic I had

425
00:18:44,029 --> 00:18:41,159
performed on me and with me was that was

426
00:18:46,219 --> 00:18:44,039
where the amazing Randi did the book

427
00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:46,229
trick upon me I we went to the book shop

428
00:18:49,759 --> 00:18:48,210
in Melbourne it was a in bigan books and

429
00:18:51,739 --> 00:18:49,769
did the hop pick a book on on the thing

430
00:18:53,539 --> 00:18:51,749
in Britain and he did that and like I

431
00:18:55,099 --> 00:18:53,549
know I could probably go online and read

432
00:18:57,049 --> 00:18:55,109
one of the many ways you can do the book

433
00:18:58,580 --> 00:18:57,059
trick but I don't want to I want to

434
00:19:00,409 --> 00:18:58,590
enjoy the fact that I had some magic

435
00:19:00,799 --> 00:19:00,419
performed on me and I've got no idea how

436
00:19:02,239 --> 00:19:00,809
he did it

437
00:19:04,009 --> 00:19:02,249
indeed it is and it's one of the things

438
00:19:05,269 --> 00:19:04,019
that when I do get the the skeptic types

439
00:19:07,070 --> 00:19:05,279
that you know that a kid they get

440
00:19:08,389 --> 00:19:07,080
frustrated that they don't know how it's

441
00:19:10,009 --> 00:19:08,399
done and I just try to reassure them

442
00:19:11,779 --> 00:19:10,019
listen if you knew how I was doing

443
00:19:13,459 --> 00:19:11,789
everything I would not be worth the

444
00:19:15,139 --> 00:19:13,469
money being spent for me to be here to

445
00:19:16,430 --> 00:19:15,149
entertain you and then they have in that

446
00:19:17,899 --> 00:19:16,440
moment that sort of go while you're

447
00:19:19,070 --> 00:19:17,909
right and in that moment they just

448
00:19:20,239 --> 00:19:19,080
willing to accept everything that sort

449
00:19:22,249 --> 00:19:20,249
of happens in front of them from then on

450
00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:22,259
in it works really well it's a very good

451
00:19:25,669 --> 00:19:24,210
explanation now Penn & Teller we

452
00:19:26,839 --> 00:19:25,679
mentioned the bullet catch what's your

453
00:19:28,430 --> 00:19:26,849
favorite trick of theirs

454
00:19:30,079 --> 00:19:28,440
since they're the sceptical magicians

455
00:19:31,999 --> 00:19:30,089
really wow that bullet catch is really

456
00:19:33,499 --> 00:19:32,009
something he's pretty special nice and I

457
00:19:35,419 --> 00:19:33,509
love how I think was Penn said look if

458
00:19:36,829 --> 00:19:35,429
you ask me how I did that and I told you

459
00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:36,839
once maybe that's the way it was done

460
00:19:39,859 --> 00:19:38,369
maybe it wasn't because I mean really

461
00:19:41,629 --> 00:19:39,869
there's a couple of ways they could have

462
00:19:43,249 --> 00:19:41,639
done it but none of them seemed safe but

463
00:19:45,229 --> 00:19:43,259
he said if you think we would really go

464
00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:45,239
on stage with a loaded gun yeah they

465
00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:47,129
wouldn't exactly what it's amazing in

466
00:19:51,769 --> 00:19:48,570
there I've tried to come up with many of

467
00:19:53,450 --> 00:19:51,779
versions myself for my own shows the

468
00:19:55,129 --> 00:19:53,460
legalities obviously in Australia now

469
00:19:57,139 --> 00:19:55,139
been a very very hindering and that sort

470
00:19:58,249 --> 00:19:57,149
of thing I came up with a method hoping

471
00:20:01,219 --> 00:19:58,259
that I could do one with a paintball gun

472
00:20:03,229 --> 00:20:01,229
oh yeah unfortunately that would incur a

473
00:20:05,570 --> 00:20:03,239
twenty thousand dollar fine really

474
00:20:06,799 --> 00:20:05,580
indeed it would say yes so part of a

475
00:20:09,169 --> 00:20:06,809
stage show you get some sort of

476
00:20:10,789 --> 00:20:09,179
dispensation from authorities when they

477
00:20:13,279 --> 00:20:10,799
understood what I was actually intending

478
00:20:14,810 --> 00:20:13,289
to use it for they declined my arm

479
00:20:16,099 --> 00:20:14,820
Hearst license and they said we are not

480
00:20:17,430 --> 00:20:16,109
gonna allow you to do that and I went

481
00:20:21,269 --> 00:20:17,440
okay

482
00:20:23,190 --> 00:20:21,279
famous musicians that you like well some

483
00:20:24,659 --> 00:20:23,200
of the ones you like yeah I mean with

484
00:20:26,070 --> 00:20:24,669
the amazing Randy be there cuz it was an

485
00:20:28,499 --> 00:20:26,080
escape artist you don't do that sort of

486
00:20:29,789 --> 00:20:28,509
thing do you I do I do indeed yes that

487
00:20:31,889 --> 00:20:29,799
involves hurting yourself and

488
00:20:34,230 --> 00:20:31,899
dislocating stuff does it does you know

489
00:20:35,460 --> 00:20:34,240
and sometimes you know we doing carry

490
00:20:36,899 --> 00:20:35,470
injuries throughout life and then we

491
00:20:38,549 --> 00:20:36,909
find out later on in life how useful

492
00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:38,559
they can actually become like my

493
00:20:43,289 --> 00:20:39,970
shoulder for example in a basketball

494
00:20:45,269 --> 00:20:43,299
fall so Wow indeed yeah very handy so

495
00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:45,279
well he's one what's one we might not

496
00:20:47,730 --> 00:20:46,450
have heard of that you think wow that's

497
00:20:49,350 --> 00:20:47,740
good magician more people should know

498
00:20:52,139 --> 00:20:49,360
about that person Wow

499
00:20:54,180 --> 00:20:52,149
amongst the amazing like local talents I

500
00:20:57,539 --> 00:20:54,190
mean I'm here in Sydney and so many of

501
00:20:58,860 --> 00:20:57,549
my my friends who were to some degree my

502
00:21:00,389 --> 00:20:58,870
heroes and now I have the pleasure exit

503
00:21:02,639 --> 00:21:00,399
: and Francis people like Phoenix

504
00:21:04,889 --> 00:21:02,649
Montgomery these people I had a matter

505
00:21:08,129 --> 00:21:04,899
Vincent Cao who who represented

506
00:21:11,310 --> 00:21:08,139
Australia at the Fizz omission which is

507
00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:11,320
essentially the Olympics of magic an

508
00:21:15,360 --> 00:21:13,690
amazing talent I believe is in the 18

509
00:21:17,580 --> 00:21:15,370
just to 19

510
00:21:19,529 --> 00:21:17,590
yeah and he's an amazing talent he was a

511
00:21:20,700 --> 00:21:19,539
very proudly brought us home a fifth

512
00:21:22,980 --> 00:21:20,710
position at the other World

513
00:21:24,360 --> 00:21:22,990
Championships in if you see the calibre

514
00:21:26,159 --> 00:21:24,370
of magic and creativity from such a

515
00:21:27,990 --> 00:21:26,169
young guy he's really gonna help put

516
00:21:29,850 --> 00:21:28,000
Australia on the map when it comes to if

517
00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:29,860
I went to went to go see a magician in

518
00:21:33,060 --> 00:21:31,450
Sydney I don't know where I'd go to what

519
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:33,070
are the good venues in Melbourne to see

520
00:21:35,730 --> 00:21:34,570
magicians in well there's actually many

521
00:21:38,340 --> 00:21:35,740
a venue is obviously there is my

522
00:21:40,350 --> 00:21:38,350
residency which is at holy moly there is

523
00:21:42,450 --> 00:21:40,360
also a couple of weekly or monthly

524
00:21:43,919 --> 00:21:42,460
events that we have for example we have

525
00:21:46,169 --> 00:21:43,929
top hat Tuesday which is on the very

526
00:21:47,970 --> 00:21:46,179
first Tuesday of every month at a venue

527
00:21:50,519 --> 00:21:47,980
called the 86 in Smith Street in

528
00:21:52,139 --> 00:21:50,529
Collingwood another great venue is the

529
00:21:54,210 --> 00:21:52,149
laneway theater where performances

530
00:21:56,490 --> 00:21:54,220
happen quite regularly the leymah theory

531
00:21:57,779 --> 00:21:56,500
is owned by one of Australia's greatest

532
00:21:59,759 --> 00:21:57,789
magicians and one of my mentors and

533
00:22:01,680 --> 00:21:59,769
heroes his name is Tim Ellis so he

534
00:22:03,330 --> 00:22:01,690
actually built a theatre in his home

535
00:22:04,740 --> 00:22:03,340
which is the laneway theatre and he

536
00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:04,750
performs there regularly as well as

537
00:22:07,919 --> 00:22:06,250
others and there's another thing that we

538
00:22:10,830 --> 00:22:07,929
hold there called sleight night in which

539
00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:10,840
we gather four of the best magicians who

540
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:12,129
are in Melbourne at the time sometimes

541
00:22:14,399 --> 00:22:13,210
the international acts that come and

542
00:22:15,990 --> 00:22:14,409
visit will invite them to come and

543
00:22:16,740 --> 00:22:16,000
perform and you can see some of the best

544
00:22:18,360 --> 00:22:16,750
close-up magic

545
00:22:20,430 --> 00:22:18,370
with this small little theater that

546
00:22:21,930 --> 00:22:20,440
holds about 40 people and it's just a

547
00:22:24,629 --> 00:22:21,940
great atmosphere and an even better show

548
00:22:25,859 --> 00:22:24,639
why do you think magicians are involved

549
00:22:27,930 --> 00:22:25,869
with skepticism because a lot of

550
00:22:28,270 --> 00:22:27,940
skeptics are magicians is it because

551
00:22:33,940 --> 00:22:28,280
they

552
00:22:35,670 --> 00:22:33,950
minute I think there is some degree and

553
00:22:37,570 --> 00:22:35,680
I think from my self understanding

554
00:22:39,190 --> 00:22:37,580
ultimately for me what I enjoy better

555
00:22:42,700 --> 00:22:39,200
most is when you meet the skeptics and

556
00:22:45,250 --> 00:22:42,710
they theorize how your routines and your

557
00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:45,260
tricks are achieved I really listen and

558
00:22:48,580 --> 00:22:46,610
the reason for that is because I don't

559
00:22:52,360 --> 00:22:48,590
want to adopt any method that people

560
00:22:54,940 --> 00:22:52,370
might seem as obvious which for me makes

561
00:22:57,010 --> 00:22:54,950
my magic level a lot more deceptive and

562
00:22:58,900 --> 00:22:57,020
as a result as a result into me in the

563
00:23:00,310 --> 00:22:58,910
magic community having a little little

564
00:23:02,380 --> 00:23:00,320
more of a status and now I had the

565
00:23:03,910 --> 00:23:02,390
opportunity to actually go to

566
00:23:06,490 --> 00:23:03,920
conventions for example I was at Genie

567
00:23:07,780 --> 00:23:06,500
con hearing here in New South Wales and

568
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:07,790
I was lecturing there and I'll being

569
00:23:13,740 --> 00:23:10,010
I'll be in Brisbane next year at the

570
00:23:16,060 --> 00:23:13,750
Assembly which was run by Sean Piper so

571
00:23:18,070 --> 00:23:16,070
when you start thinking this way and

572
00:23:20,050 --> 00:23:18,080
really trying to adopt methods that are

573
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:20,060
gonna fool people is challenging as they

574
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:21,650
are for you to actually master these

575
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:23,810
slides in the end ultimately all you're

576
00:23:27,010 --> 00:23:25,850
gonna be doing is generating routines

577
00:23:29,710 --> 00:23:27,020
that are going to be your reputation

578
00:23:31,660 --> 00:23:29,720
makers and people are really going to

579
00:23:33,220 --> 00:23:31,670
enjoy them well it's been great change

580
00:23:34,690 --> 00:23:33,230
you about this I'm gonna I'm looking I'm

581
00:23:35,770 --> 00:23:34,700
looking forward to saying you're wrong

582
00:23:36,970 --> 00:23:35,780
then I'm gonna sit in the audience and

583
00:23:38,290 --> 00:23:36,980
have a really good look at what you're

584
00:23:39,700 --> 00:23:38,300
doing there where can people see you

585
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:39,710
online or find out a bit more about you

586
00:23:44,410 --> 00:23:41,690
online indeed you can find me online at

587
00:23:46,060 --> 00:23:44,420
Nick Kay magic calm and there's links

588
00:23:47,950 --> 00:23:46,070
there to my Facebook and of course my

589
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:47,960
Instagram feel free to drop me a line

590
00:23:53,770 --> 00:23:50,450
and thank you so much for your time inna

591
00:23:55,930 --> 00:23:53,780
thank you well it's now Sunday morning

592
00:23:58,660 --> 00:23:55,940
here of the final day of the skeptic on

593
00:24:00,340 --> 00:23:58,670
2018 and it's a bit of an overcast day

594
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:00,350
but I'm here with Peter Rogers how are

595
00:24:04,330 --> 00:24:02,930
you I'm very well look I was introduced

596
00:24:07,510 --> 00:24:04,340
to you as a you are the guy who knows

597
00:24:10,260 --> 00:24:07,520
everything about magic why is scepticism

598
00:24:12,460 --> 00:24:10,270
and magicians so closely connected

599
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:12,470
magicians are all into fraud they do it

600
00:24:16,360 --> 00:24:14,810
themselves but I admit it and there's a

601
00:24:20,020 --> 00:24:16,370
lot of people with the skeptics so

602
00:24:22,029 --> 00:24:20,030
against that psychics that use the same

603
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:22,039
methods as magicians and

604
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:24,210
what do you think of the is the

605
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:25,890
proportion of people that are genuinely

606
00:24:29,029 --> 00:24:27,570
being fraudulent and the ones that are

607
00:24:30,620 --> 00:24:29,039
convinced that they can do it and fool

608
00:24:32,210 --> 00:24:30,630
themselves whoever kind of worked out

609
00:24:34,039 --> 00:24:32,220
with that ratio would be I don't know

610
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:34,049
it's 50/50 I think I think a lot of

611
00:24:38,389 --> 00:24:35,970
people that mortar divining I think a

612
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:38,399
lot of them are true believers mmm but

613
00:24:41,510 --> 00:24:39,690
they're killing themselves

614
00:24:43,299 --> 00:24:41,520
I think fortune tell us the same you

615
00:24:46,399 --> 00:24:43,309
know some people think they can do it

616
00:24:49,340 --> 00:24:46,409
they just don't understand averages how

617
00:24:51,799 --> 00:24:49,350
things actually turn out and Peter as a

618
00:24:53,539 --> 00:24:51,809
magician we had Nick K from Melbourne

619
00:24:54,409 --> 00:24:53,549
doing some close-up magic kind of stuff

620
00:24:56,210 --> 00:24:54,419
there last night

621
00:24:57,769 --> 00:24:56,220
what's been the area of magic that

622
00:24:59,269 --> 00:24:57,779
fascinates you you like the close-up

623
00:25:01,789 --> 00:24:59,279
card work what's the stuff you like

624
00:25:03,710 --> 00:25:01,799
close-up in card magic I'm more

625
00:25:05,360 --> 00:25:03,720
interested in the impossibility of it I

626
00:25:07,370 --> 00:25:05,370
don't get out and perform a lot and I'm

627
00:25:10,669 --> 00:25:07,380
I've never wanted to be a performer to

628
00:25:13,639 --> 00:25:10,679
be honest I just like to play with

629
00:25:15,380 --> 00:25:13,649
people's minds to make them just so that

630
00:25:17,389 --> 00:25:15,390
can't happen and what do you like at

631
00:25:19,190 --> 00:25:17,399
palming cards and that sort of thing you

632
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:19,200
do good at that oh I do a lot of sleight

633
00:25:22,639 --> 00:25:21,570
of hand yeah yeah and how much practice

634
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:22,649
does that take I was talking to Nick

635
00:25:26,120 --> 00:25:24,450
last night about how teller used to go

636
00:25:28,039 --> 00:25:26,130
around their house as a kid just palming

637
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:28,049
things all day just keeping them there

638
00:25:32,090 --> 00:25:29,610
to see how long is that what you got to

639
00:25:35,029 --> 00:25:32,100
do yeah I'd be I'd be also playing with

640
00:25:36,380 --> 00:25:35,039
magic all the time it's you know 24

641
00:25:38,630 --> 00:25:36,390
hours a day you're thinking about magic

642
00:25:40,310 --> 00:25:38,640
is that something naughty kids did

643
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:40,320
before the internet they basically like

644
00:25:43,909 --> 00:25:42,210
for I am I get into a magic act

645
00:25:45,500 --> 00:25:43,919
they're kids well kids still do it with

646
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:45,510
the Internet actually they they don't go

647
00:25:51,740 --> 00:25:47,490
out performing so much now they actually

648
00:25:52,669 --> 00:25:51,750
learn magic on the Internet I don't

649
00:25:55,639 --> 00:25:52,679
think it's a good way to do it

650
00:25:56,990 --> 00:25:55,649
mm-hmm there's a lot of magic on the

651
00:25:58,669 --> 00:25:57,000
Internet yeah and of course whenever you

652
00:25:59,750 --> 00:25:58,679
do a trick now because everybody knows

653
00:26:01,220 --> 00:25:59,760
everything because of the internet

654
00:26:02,539 --> 00:26:01,230
everyone wants to know how did you do

655
00:26:03,830 --> 00:26:02,549
that trick all the time and they get

656
00:26:05,389 --> 00:26:03,840
really annoyed when you don't tell them

657
00:26:08,269 --> 00:26:05,399
when in fact back in the day that was

658
00:26:10,789 --> 00:26:08,279
just part of the show yeah look if you

659
00:26:13,340 --> 00:26:10,799
saw some on the trick and they're amazed

660
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:13,350
that have a memory for the rest of their

661
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:15,570
life you know that wasn't completely

662
00:26:20,029 --> 00:26:17,850
impossible if I learn how it's done

663
00:26:22,370 --> 00:26:20,039
within a week that forgotten it I just

664
00:26:24,230 --> 00:26:22,380
say oh at all they're very disappointed

665
00:26:25,700 --> 00:26:24,240
when I do learn how it's done

666
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:25,710
this is what I mentioned when the

667
00:26:29,750 --> 00:26:27,570
amazing Randi did the book trick to me

668
00:26:31,580 --> 00:26:29,760
in in a book shop in Melbourne a couple

669
00:26:32,690 --> 00:26:31,590
of years ago I could probably go look up

670
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:32,700
one of the ways he might have done that

671
00:26:35,360 --> 00:26:34,290
but that might not have been the way he

672
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:35,370
did it anyway because there's a number

673
00:26:38,990 --> 00:26:37,290
of ways to do it I just enjoy being

674
00:26:41,180 --> 00:26:39,000
amazed by the whole thing in being a

675
00:26:41,900 --> 00:26:41,190
part of it yeah yeah once once you know

676
00:26:43,820 --> 00:26:41,910
how it's done

677
00:26:46,370 --> 00:26:43,830
you know it's lost its mysteries lost

678
00:26:48,890 --> 00:26:46,380
its real purpose in been done so you

679
00:26:50,930 --> 00:26:48,900
know magic is the illusion of something

680
00:26:51,260 --> 00:26:50,940
impossible happening when you know how

681
00:26:53,810 --> 00:26:51,270
it's done

682
00:26:55,430 --> 00:26:53,820
you think I'll I could have done that if

683
00:26:57,770 --> 00:26:55,440
I knew that and you and you lose

684
00:27:01,130 --> 00:26:57,780
interest in it and within a few months

685
00:27:02,419 --> 00:27:01,140
you forget really forget it anyway and

686
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:02,429
we've been some of your favorite

687
00:27:06,049 --> 00:27:04,170
all-time Australian magicians because

688
00:27:07,669 --> 00:27:06,059
they tend to give it overshadowed by the

689
00:27:09,620 --> 00:27:07,679
overseas imports it were the ones that

690
00:27:12,740 --> 00:27:09,630
we should remember from back in the day

691
00:27:15,350 --> 00:27:12,750
and even now we've actually had a lot of

692
00:27:19,180 --> 00:27:15,360
magicians in Australia the two world on

693
00:27:21,710 --> 00:27:19,190
one's a little event who was popular

694
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:21,720
during the war and after the war very

695
00:27:25,850 --> 00:27:24,090
popular in England but he came from well

696
00:27:27,460 --> 00:27:25,860
he lived in Delft the Bellevue Hill in

697
00:27:31,180 --> 00:27:27,470
Sydney

698
00:27:32,649 --> 00:27:31,190
and Brooklyn who all call him an

699
00:27:34,510 --> 00:27:32,659
Australian he actually came to Australia

700
00:27:37,799 --> 00:27:34,520
as a five-year-old Kane lived in Sydney

701
00:27:42,610 --> 00:27:37,809
to Europe and New Zealand and Australia

702
00:27:44,860 --> 00:27:42,620
again back in the 40s 50s 60s but my

703
00:27:47,169 --> 00:27:44,870
true love is probably a gentleman by the

704
00:27:51,100 --> 00:27:47,179
name of Sheen hue guard he was actually

705
00:27:53,860 --> 00:27:51,110
born in Toowoomba and as a young man he

706
00:27:55,390 --> 00:27:53,870
took up magic was interested in magic he

707
00:27:58,630 --> 00:27:55,400
started work for a bank this is back in

708
00:28:02,260 --> 00:27:58,640
the eighteen hundreds okay work for Bank

709
00:28:04,510 --> 00:28:02,270
was transferred to Berk town now if you

710
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:04,520
know where Berk town is still to get the

711
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:07,090
book ten there's still a gravel road up

712
00:28:12,250 --> 00:28:09,770
just underneath the Gulf of Gulf of

713
00:28:15,970 --> 00:28:12,260
Carpentaria didn't like working in a

714
00:28:17,980 --> 00:28:15,980
bank so the big export from Burke town

715
00:28:21,810 --> 00:28:17,990
in those days and still is I think was

716
00:28:24,820 --> 00:28:21,820
meat and he bought a refrigeration plant

717
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:24,830
left the bank there's a blackout or he

718
00:28:29,350 --> 00:28:27,250
lost electricity he lost all the money

719
00:28:31,630 --> 00:28:29,360
sorry Phillip will I've got to take up

720
00:28:33,909 --> 00:28:31,640
magic as a profession and he started

721
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:33,919
doing magic went to end the charges Taos

722
00:28:41,770 --> 00:28:36,890
had a big magic complex there and this

723
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:41,780
is about 910 he was to Australia some

724
00:28:48,039 --> 00:28:46,010
magician 1916 but by then he had four

725
00:28:50,710 --> 00:28:48,049
kids we left Australia he went to Fiji

726
00:28:53,500 --> 00:28:50,720
and then he went on to America worked in

727
00:28:56,830 --> 00:28:53,510
Coney Island for ten years and the

728
00:29:01,720 --> 00:28:56,840
Depression hit and I'm magic supply

729
00:29:03,190 --> 00:29:01,730
dealer in America saw he was in hard

730
00:29:04,659 --> 00:29:03,200
times not having any money and he said

731
00:29:06,909 --> 00:29:04,669
will you write some instructions for me

732
00:29:09,430 --> 00:29:06,919
from my tricks I'm selling and then he

733
00:29:12,190 --> 00:29:09,440
started to write books and in jean hugh

734
00:29:14,350 --> 00:29:12,200
guard became one of the greatest magic

735
00:29:17,020 --> 00:29:14,360
writers of the 20th century you had a

736
00:29:18,850 --> 00:29:17,030
background in magic heroes books life

737
00:29:21,999 --> 00:29:18,860
encyclopedia of card fix railroad to

738
00:29:23,619 --> 00:29:22,009
card technique expert card technique

739
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:23,629
and they're still relevant today of

740
00:29:26,710 --> 00:29:25,730
course relevant today they are right

741
00:29:30,159 --> 00:29:26,720
books

742
00:29:32,979 --> 00:29:30,169
he got actually died his real name was

743
00:29:33,340 --> 00:29:32,989
voiced gerard voice but he called

744
00:29:38,529 --> 00:29:33,350
himself

745
00:29:41,799 --> 00:29:38,539
Jean huger as a writer he died in 1959 I

746
00:29:43,749 --> 00:29:41,809
think was bad August to September who

747
00:29:45,850 --> 00:29:43,759
was the magician's magician like

748
00:29:47,499 --> 00:29:45,860
obviously Houdini always comes up but he

749
00:29:48,879 --> 00:29:47,509
is he the like the one that everyone

750
00:29:51,749 --> 00:29:48,889
looks up to or is that one that the

751
00:29:54,580 --> 00:29:51,759
layperson might not know as well

752
00:29:56,019 --> 00:29:54,590
magicians really don't a lot of medusa

753
00:29:57,549 --> 00:29:56,029
tell like who did any of they thought he

754
00:30:00,220 --> 00:29:57,559
was he was great at promoting himself

755
00:30:02,729 --> 00:30:00,230
but he's actually actual technique at

756
00:30:05,769 --> 00:30:02,739
magic wasn't a great he was good person

757
00:30:06,970 --> 00:30:05,779
showmanship and you know getting people

758
00:30:08,889 --> 00:30:06,980
and getting publicity was great

759
00:30:11,919 --> 00:30:08,899
publicity

760
00:30:15,190 --> 00:30:11,929
magicians magicians probably the best

761
00:30:17,169 --> 00:30:15,200
manipulator of the 20th century early

762
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:17,179
20th century was a gentleman boiling out

763
00:30:21,369 --> 00:30:19,850
Cardini I know I mentioned Cardini

764
00:30:23,109 --> 00:30:21,379
because he actually called himself

765
00:30:25,359 --> 00:30:23,119
Cardini when he was in Australia his

766
00:30:27,099 --> 00:30:25,369
actual name was Pickford and of course

767
00:30:28,989 --> 00:30:27,109
that sounds like he was a specialist in

768
00:30:31,090 --> 00:30:28,999
the close-up magic well he he was a

769
00:30:32,859 --> 00:30:31,100
manipulator on stage he used to do he

770
00:30:35,169 --> 00:30:32,869
used to produce cards and cigarettes and

771
00:30:39,849 --> 00:30:35,179
back in the days when it was polite to

772
00:30:41,859 --> 00:30:39,859
smoke but he had a perfect another

773
00:30:45,430 --> 00:30:41,869
magician and magician who probably never

774
00:30:48,070 --> 00:30:45,440
heard of his Dai Vernon who was

775
00:30:48,729 --> 00:30:48,080
definitely into close-up magic and all

776
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:48,739
magicians

777
00:30:55,830 --> 00:30:53,410
close-up magic and card tricks

778
00:30:57,260 --> 00:30:55,840
that have been around in the last 70 odd

779
00:31:00,030 --> 00:30:57,270
years we'll have heard of dive in and

780
00:31:02,850 --> 00:31:00,040
probably had the most influence of any

781
00:31:05,970 --> 00:31:02,860
magician originally from Canada then he

782
00:31:11,220 --> 00:31:05,980
went down to New York as a young man and

783
00:31:13,350 --> 00:31:11,230
then in the 1960s he went to Los Angeles

784
00:31:16,050 --> 00:31:13,360
join the Magic Castle which is a

785
00:31:17,820 --> 00:31:16,060
magician's club in Los Angeles stayed

786
00:31:21,780 --> 00:31:17,830
there until he died he was in his 90s

787
00:31:24,390 --> 00:31:21,790
and this is back in the early 1990s that

788
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:24,400
he died and what about currently who are

789
00:31:28,350 --> 00:31:26,050
the ones that would be the top of their

790
00:31:30,750 --> 00:31:28,360
game worldwide at the moment look at the

791
00:31:32,730 --> 00:31:30,760
pitch what sort of magic you're

792
00:31:35,130 --> 00:31:32,740
interested in it's like saying who's the

793
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:35,140
top singer that's true but it depends

794
00:31:39,510 --> 00:31:37,570
you know yeah well you do have the ones

795
00:31:41,460 --> 00:31:39,520
that like doing the big the big stuff

796
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:41,470
like making half a city disappear like

797
00:31:44,820 --> 00:31:42,850
kind of stuff to go do close-up magic

798
00:31:46,380 --> 00:31:44,830
air yeah David David Copperfield

799
00:31:49,740 --> 00:31:46,390
probably the best known one even

800
00:31:51,990 --> 00:31:49,750
Siegfried and Roy were big up until they

801
00:31:53,910 --> 00:31:52,000
had their excellent yeah 15 years or so

802
00:31:55,980 --> 00:31:53,920
that the David Copperfield Penn & Teller

803
00:31:57,750 --> 00:31:55,990
had the big show in Las Vegas

804
00:31:59,130 --> 00:31:57,760
yes I've saw this show it's a great

805
00:32:00,930 --> 00:31:59,140
range of acts they did it was kind of a

806
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:00,940
bestop show I saw and because they

807
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:02,290
finished with the bullet catch for that

808
00:32:05,490 --> 00:32:03,850
which they're quite well known from but

809
00:32:06,470 --> 00:32:05,500
all the ones on the way to get there

810
00:32:10,860 --> 00:32:06,480
were interesting as well

811
00:32:13,020 --> 00:32:10,870
yeah if you see Penn & Teller XE they

812
00:32:14,730 --> 00:32:13,030
keep changing their show so sometimes

813
00:32:16,290 --> 00:32:14,740
you're golden it's a great show you

814
00:32:18,630 --> 00:32:16,300
might go a few months later and they'll

815
00:32:20,310 --> 00:32:18,640
have changed the routine so you might be

816
00:32:22,110 --> 00:32:20,320
disappointed so it won't be quite as

817
00:32:23,190 --> 00:32:22,120
good or you know because they change the

818
00:32:25,050 --> 00:32:23,200
rent and then you might go back a few

819
00:32:26,700 --> 00:32:25,060
months later and see in another so some

820
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:26,710
of the some of the routines they do will

821
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:27,970
be the same and some will be different

822
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:30,970
so they keep its look every time you go

823
00:32:33,570 --> 00:32:32,290
to Las Vegas it's worth going back

824
00:32:36,780 --> 00:32:33,580
because you'll always see something new

825
00:32:39,270 --> 00:32:36,790
and they show it's just you know some of

826
00:32:42,690 --> 00:32:39,280
the material you might not like as well

827
00:32:44,430 --> 00:32:42,700
as others but mmm yeah when they started

828
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:44,440
out that little bit like they seem to be

829
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:46,090
the anti magicians like doing the cup

830
00:32:49,260 --> 00:32:47,650
and balls with the plastic Caesar cups

831
00:32:51,060 --> 00:32:49,270
and stuff and the great thing about that

832
00:32:52,380 --> 00:32:51,070
is that even when you see them doing it

833
00:32:53,850 --> 00:32:52,390
with the plastic see-through cup you

834
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:53,860
don't really learn all that much more it

835
00:32:57,990 --> 00:32:55,450
doesn't give anything away we're now I

836
00:32:59,130 --> 00:32:58,000
knew a lot of magicians for didn't like

837
00:33:00,870 --> 00:32:59,140
it because I said ah this is all

838
00:33:02,730 --> 00:33:00,880
exposure they're exposing the secrets

839
00:33:03,990 --> 00:33:02,740
but I don't think they were there you

840
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:04,000
know they didn't

841
00:33:08,730 --> 00:33:05,770
so the cups and balls with see-through

842
00:33:09,930 --> 00:33:08,740
cups the point is a layman still

843
00:33:13,620 --> 00:33:09,940
wouldn't know how it was done absolutely

844
00:33:17,100 --> 00:33:13,630
yeah you know were using misdirection

845
00:33:19,830 --> 00:33:17,110
which is what all magics is its so the

846
00:33:21,270 --> 00:33:19,840
same principles and a lay audience still

847
00:33:23,100 --> 00:33:21,280
didn't know how it was done

848
00:33:24,660 --> 00:33:23,110
what's the one trick you've seen anyone

849
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:24,670
do during your entire life and you

850
00:33:29,130 --> 00:33:26,050
pretty much know how much that would its

851
00:33:30,330 --> 00:33:29,140
floor do you go on Hannah what's the one

852
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:30,340
trick that if someone's done that's

853
00:33:35,700 --> 00:33:32,050
again hang and what I get fooled

854
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:35,710
occasionally I can remember just a close

855
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:39,010
up routine with four coins magician past

856
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:41,770
these hands a few inches above the coins

857
00:33:48,210 --> 00:33:45,370
and I seem to gather in a corner in one

858
00:33:50,790 --> 00:33:48,220
spot they just seem to move around and I

859
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:50,800
was amazed the first time I saw it that

860
00:33:56,750 --> 00:33:53,890
I I don't sleep until I find out how

861
00:34:01,260 --> 00:33:56,760
it's done so I I don't think there's

862
00:34:04,410 --> 00:34:01,270
many tricks that I'm still fooled by I

863
00:34:05,580 --> 00:34:04,420
I'm not be fooled for a while but I make

864
00:34:07,380 --> 00:34:05,590
an effort to find out how they're done

865
00:34:09,210 --> 00:34:07,390
because we're here with their skepticism

866
00:34:10,889 --> 00:34:09,220
what's the sort of what's the one whew

867
00:34:12,540 --> 00:34:10,899
that really annoys you what's a word

868
00:34:14,690 --> 00:34:12,550
that gets your goat that annoys you of

869
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:14,700
most of all of them I don't like people

870
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:18,850
claiming to be a genuine psychic or a

871
00:34:24,810 --> 00:34:21,610
genuine at anything but using trickery

872
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:24,820
to achieve that and not admitting it so

873
00:34:29,460 --> 00:34:26,770
I suppose I'm thinking of Uri Geller

874
00:34:32,580 --> 00:34:29,470
well I had problems that Uri Geller made

875
00:34:34,740 --> 00:34:32,590
a lot of money in defrauding people he

876
00:34:37,260 --> 00:34:34,750
now virtually although he still can't

877
00:34:41,180 --> 00:34:37,270
say out loud the boots the admits to

878
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:41,190
magicians that he is one of us and

879
00:34:45,060 --> 00:34:43,450
where's the website we could go that's

880
00:34:46,590 --> 00:34:45,070
got either a good history of magic or

881
00:34:47,790 --> 00:34:46,600
some stuff about magic in case we want

882
00:34:48,540 --> 00:34:47,800
to learn a bit more what's one you could

883
00:34:50,430 --> 00:34:48,550
recommend to this

884
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:50,440
I prefer books actually to the website

885
00:34:56,730 --> 00:34:55,210
so it's a good book then better if you

886
00:34:57,840 --> 00:34:56,740
want a depends on whether you want to

887
00:34:59,430 --> 00:34:57,850
know the secret so if you want to know

888
00:35:00,690 --> 00:34:59,440
the history of magic all right let's go

889
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:00,700
with the history of magic because a lot

890
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:02,290
of people wanted the secrets but that's

891
00:35:05,340 --> 00:35:03,970
like going to the blueprints of the

892
00:35:06,630 --> 00:35:05,350
whole thing let's find out who designed

893
00:35:11,370 --> 00:35:06,640
the car let's go that way

894
00:35:15,599 --> 00:35:11,380
yeah if you look at books written by

895
00:35:17,550 --> 00:35:15,609
ed would endorse the aw yes he's from

896
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:17,560
Hull in in England he's written numerous

897
00:35:27,839 --> 00:35:23,050
books if you just want to read the best

898
00:35:30,300 --> 00:35:27,849
specific magicians there's a lot of

899
00:35:32,940 --> 00:35:30,310
books published by Mike Haynie in

900
00:35:36,180 --> 00:35:32,950
America of course his publishing company

901
00:35:38,370 --> 00:35:36,190
magic words he's written some of the

902
00:35:41,430 --> 00:35:38,380
books he's written books on on Harry

903
00:35:43,410 --> 00:35:41,440
Keller is a famous magician on on Carter

904
00:35:45,390 --> 00:35:43,420
the great another great magician he's

905
00:35:46,890 --> 00:35:45,400
published a book on less Levant was

906
00:35:52,770 --> 00:35:46,900
actually written by Kent Blackmore who's

907
00:35:54,390 --> 00:35:52,780
from Sydney great book these books been

908
00:35:56,819 --> 00:35:54,400
coming out some are still available some

909
00:35:58,920 --> 00:35:56,829
you might have to get secondhand top

910
00:36:01,290 --> 00:35:58,930
tips there Peter will enjoy your final

911
00:36:02,339 --> 00:36:01,300
day here of skeptic on 2018 must been

912
00:36:05,609 --> 00:36:02,349
your favorite moment from the

913
00:36:07,710 --> 00:36:05,619
conferences you so far I think the

914
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:07,720
performance of magic naturally at the

915
00:36:11,790 --> 00:36:09,010
banquet last night yeah that was pretty

916
00:36:27,300 --> 00:36:11,800
good there thanks a lot babe thank you

917
00:36:33,700 --> 00:36:30,730
calling all skeptics or listeners do you

918
00:36:35,740 --> 00:36:33,710
live in or near Glasgow are you planning

919
00:36:38,770 --> 00:36:35,750
to visit sometime then you're in luck

920
00:36:41,830 --> 00:36:38,780
because Glasgow skeptics have got your

921
00:36:43,930 --> 00:36:41,840
Monday nights sorted we are committed to

922
00:36:47,110 --> 00:36:43,940
filling up every available Monday night

923
00:36:49,300 --> 00:36:47,120
talks on science and skepticism past

924
00:36:51,340 --> 00:36:49,310
speakers include Eugenie Scott Jerry

925
00:36:53,380 --> 00:36:51,350
Coyne Michael Marshall Nate Phelps

926
00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:53,390
Tom and Cecil from cognitive dissonance

927
00:36:58,810 --> 00:36:56,810
PZ Myers Richard Wiseman EC drilling

928
00:37:01,990 --> 00:36:58,820
noah heath and eli from the skating

929
00:37:04,240 --> 00:37:02,000
atheist Simon Singh Rebecca Watson and a

930
00:37:06,610 --> 00:37:04,250
multitude of local academics and

931
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:06,620
skeptics there's literally nothing

932
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:09,290
better you can do on a Monday in Glasgow

933
00:37:14,140 --> 00:37:11,210
it doesn't involve taking your clothes

934
00:37:16,390 --> 00:37:14,150
off so come join us we've also got a

935
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:16,400
vibrant online community you can find us

936
00:37:21,010 --> 00:37:18,530
on Facebook Twitter and get involved

937
00:37:38,260 --> 00:37:21,020
with the discussion glasgow skeptics

938
00:37:44,510 --> 00:37:38,270
self-help for your brain life is wild

939
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:44,520
[Music]

940
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:54,130
with Michelle Franklin today I want to

941
00:37:58,710 --> 00:37:55,450
talk about biocontrol

942
00:37:59,850 --> 00:37:58,720
what does it mean to you and what do you

943
00:38:01,640 --> 00:37:59,860
think of when you hear the word

944
00:38:04,350 --> 00:38:01,650
biocontrol

945
00:38:06,030 --> 00:38:04,360
what I tend to find when I when I'm

946
00:38:08,820 --> 00:38:06,040
talking to people is that most

947
00:38:11,490 --> 00:38:08,830
Australians have vaguely heard of

948
00:38:14,310 --> 00:38:11,500
myxomatosis and Khaleesi virus being

949
00:38:16,620 --> 00:38:14,320
used against rabbits and if I'm lucky

950
00:38:18,540 --> 00:38:16,630
maybe they remember back to you know in

951
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:18,550
science when we learned about the moth

952
00:38:24,150 --> 00:38:20,650
capture Blastoise impacting on cactus

953
00:38:25,830 --> 00:38:24,160
populations but in general I find that

954
00:38:28,770 --> 00:38:25,840
most people tend to think of these as

955
00:38:31,980 --> 00:38:28,780
failures because we still have rabbits

956
00:38:34,050 --> 00:38:31,990
and we still have cactuses so therefore

957
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:34,060
obviously they think that fire control

958
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:41,170
doesn't work for the much more common

959
00:38:46,350 --> 00:38:43,450
reason that people seem to talk about it

960
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:46,360
is when they bring up cane toads as a

961
00:38:51,690 --> 00:38:48,370
retort against a suggestion of

962
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:51,700
scientists trying something new for

963
00:38:55,050 --> 00:38:53,290
those listeners who are outside of

964
00:38:57,060 --> 00:38:55,060
Australia and may not know about cane

965
00:38:59,850 --> 00:38:57,070
toads they're probably the most hated

966
00:39:01,860 --> 00:38:59,860
invasive species that we have they were

967
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:01,870
introduced deliberately about 80 years

968
00:39:07,650 --> 00:39:05,650
ago as a bio control agent but they

969
00:39:10,860 --> 00:39:07,660
failed completely and became an invasive

970
00:39:13,530 --> 00:39:10,870
pest all stages of their lifecycle are

971
00:39:15,450 --> 00:39:13,540
poisonous and just to add to their bad

972
00:39:18,900 --> 00:39:15,460
image they're generally considered to be

973
00:39:21,030 --> 00:39:18,910
ugly so now cane toads are the poster

974
00:39:23,220 --> 00:39:21,040
child for why scientists can't be

975
00:39:25,950 --> 00:39:23,230
trusted and biocontrol is a bad idea

976
00:39:27,810 --> 00:39:25,960
this is really unfortunate because it's

977
00:39:30,240 --> 00:39:27,820
used against all manner of scientists

978
00:39:32,580 --> 00:39:30,250
when the argument against the thing that

979
00:39:35,370 --> 00:39:32,590
they're talking about falls down and the

980
00:39:37,110 --> 00:39:35,380
anti science person resorts to attacking

981
00:39:39,990 --> 00:39:37,120
scientists as a whole

982
00:39:41,970 --> 00:39:40,000
yeah well scientists thought cane toads

983
00:39:42,180 --> 00:39:41,980
were a good idea so look where that got

984
00:39:44,220 --> 00:39:42,190
us

985
00:39:46,620 --> 00:39:44,230
where did this image of the bumbling

986
00:39:48,660 --> 00:39:46,630
scientist who takes insane risks and

987
00:39:50,970 --> 00:39:48,670
doesn't consider consequences come from

988
00:39:53,740 --> 00:39:50,980
how is it impacting on working

989
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:53,750
scientists today where do we go wrong

990
00:39:58,210 --> 00:39:56,330
and why has one big failure come to

991
00:40:01,660 --> 00:39:58,220
represent an entire ecological

992
00:40:04,300 --> 00:40:01,670
management system and more importantly

993
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:04,310
what can we do to fix this we all know

994
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:06,170
that biocontrol has a terrible image and

995
00:40:11,890 --> 00:40:08,690
that many people fear the next cane toad

996
00:40:13,990 --> 00:40:11,900
but we can and have learned a lot since

997
00:40:15,700 --> 00:40:14,000
this failure not only the failure in the

998
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:15,710
risk assessment that allowed cane toads

999
00:40:20,170 --> 00:40:18,530
to be introduced and this is a risk

1000
00:40:22,780 --> 00:40:20,180
that's been all but completely

1001
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:22,790
eliminated in modern bio control but

1002
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:24,410
also the failure and science

1003
00:40:29,830 --> 00:40:26,570
communication that is still plaguing us

1004
00:40:31,990 --> 00:40:29,840
to this day science communication has

1005
00:40:36,190 --> 00:40:32,000
some serious issues that need to be

1006
00:40:38,470 --> 00:40:36,200
addressed at a very broad scale but what

1007
00:40:41,650 --> 00:40:38,480
I want to talk to you about today is how

1008
00:40:44,110 --> 00:40:41,660
you as a science enthusiast can help the

1009
00:40:46,210 --> 00:40:44,120
situation for the poor ecologist who was

1010
00:40:49,150 --> 00:40:46,220
just trying to make things better and

1011
00:40:50,650 --> 00:40:49,160
can't get past that damn cane toad what

1012
00:40:53,110 --> 00:40:50,660
I want you to do is to educate yourself

1013
00:40:55,330 --> 00:40:53,120
so that when you hear people use this

1014
00:40:58,180 --> 00:40:55,340
argument you can say the all-important

1015
00:41:00,100 --> 00:40:58,190
well actually and then back it up with

1016
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:00,110
some interesting and memorable

1017
00:41:06,070 --> 00:41:02,570
information let's start with the basics

1018
00:41:09,370 --> 00:41:06,080
of what buyer control is and how it's

1019
00:41:12,700 --> 00:41:09,380
done today because it is done a lot and

1020
00:41:15,070 --> 00:41:12,710
it's done very well the basic idea of

1021
00:41:18,190 --> 00:41:15,080
buyer control is about balancing

1022
00:41:19,810 --> 00:41:18,200
advantages when an animal or a plant is

1023
00:41:21,910 --> 00:41:19,820
brought in to a new place where it

1024
00:41:24,100 --> 00:41:21,920
didn't exist before it has certain

1025
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:24,110
advantages everything lives in an

1026
00:41:29,020 --> 00:41:26,810
ecosystem and most plants and animals

1027
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:29,030
have very specific pest species that

1028
00:41:33,460 --> 00:41:31,010
have evolved with them and which live

1029
00:41:36,130 --> 00:41:33,470
exclusively on them or on their very

1030
00:41:38,260 --> 00:41:36,140
close relatives so if you take a plant

1031
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:38,270
or animal say from South America and

1032
00:41:42,190 --> 00:41:39,650
bring it to Australia

1033
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:42,200
suddenly it experiences a world where

1034
00:41:46,060 --> 00:41:43,970
the bulk of the pathogens and parasites

1035
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:46,070
just don't eat it because they haven't

1036
00:41:51,070 --> 00:41:49,010
evolved to do so everything has a

1037
00:41:53,590 --> 00:41:51,080
background parasite load that it has

1038
00:41:55,810 --> 00:41:53,600
evolved to cope with and when that is

1039
00:41:57,730 --> 00:41:55,820
left behind in South America and the

1040
00:42:00,550 --> 00:41:57,740
invasive species is suddenly free to

1041
00:42:04,060 --> 00:42:00,560
grow and spread uninhibited it has an

1042
00:42:06,670 --> 00:42:04,070
advantage now success in buyer control

1043
00:42:07,650 --> 00:42:06,680
doesn't mean that all of your target

1044
00:42:10,450 --> 00:42:07,660
species die

1045
00:42:12,250 --> 00:42:10,460
success can in fact be quite mediocre

1046
00:42:14,980 --> 00:42:12,260
and hard to spot

1047
00:42:17,350 --> 00:42:14,990
it's not about wiping out the hosts it's

1048
00:42:20,190 --> 00:42:17,360
about developing an ongoing relationship

1049
00:42:22,300 --> 00:42:20,200
between the agent and the host and

1050
00:42:23,830 --> 00:42:22,310
establishing a self-sustaining

1051
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:23,840
population that will cycle through

1052
00:42:28,930 --> 00:42:26,450
breeding and feeding and living off the

1053
00:42:31,990 --> 00:42:28,940
target species and reducing the health

1054
00:42:34,300 --> 00:42:32,000
of the target species and reducing the

1055
00:42:37,210 --> 00:42:34,310
advantages that it was using to get

1056
00:42:40,180 --> 00:42:37,220
ahead in its new environment step one is

1057
00:42:42,730 --> 00:42:40,190
to find the agent usually this is done

1058
00:42:44,650 --> 00:42:42,740
by going back to the place of origin and

1059
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:44,660
just looking around what's eating it

1060
00:42:49,420 --> 00:42:46,850
there you start with a long list of

1061
00:42:51,820 --> 00:42:49,430
potential agents sometimes 100 or more

1062
00:42:55,390 --> 00:42:51,830
species that you found living on this

1063
00:42:58,090 --> 00:42:55,400
this plant or animal and then you start

1064
00:43:00,550 --> 00:42:58,100
whittling that list down for some it's

1065
00:43:03,580 --> 00:43:00,560
easy because they're already known pests

1066
00:43:05,980 --> 00:43:03,590
and in their native country so you know

1067
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:05,990
that that's not going to work that's the

1068
00:43:09,430 --> 00:43:06,770
easy part

1069
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:09,440
you shortlist maybe 20 or 30 agents

1070
00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:12,410
usually insects but not always and you

1071
00:43:17,740 --> 00:43:15,290
test them step two is the hard part

1072
00:43:20,290 --> 00:43:17,750
but the rigorous testing and retesting

1073
00:43:22,390 --> 00:43:20,300
that is done to every potential new

1074
00:43:25,780 --> 00:43:22,400
agent is the reason that biocontrol is

1075
00:43:29,650 --> 00:43:25,790
safe today there's two basic tests that

1076
00:43:31,510 --> 00:43:29,660
need to be performed one is to find out

1077
00:43:33,610 --> 00:43:31,520
if the agent can live on something else

1078
00:43:36,490 --> 00:43:33,620
this is the step that was missed with

1079
00:43:38,170 --> 00:43:36,500
the cane toad you have to be almost 100%

1080
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:38,180
sure that the agent can't survive

1081
00:43:44,590 --> 00:43:41,330
without its host the agent that you're

1082
00:43:47,170 --> 00:43:44,600
looking for has to have evolved with the

1083
00:43:49,090 --> 00:43:47,180
target host species so it'll be

1084
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:49,100
completely dependent on it for survival

1085
00:43:54,010 --> 00:43:51,650
the way that your test for this is to

1086
00:43:55,990 --> 00:43:54,020
take every conceivable off target host

1087
00:43:57,670 --> 00:43:56,000
which is another way of saying any plant

1088
00:44:00,880 --> 00:43:57,680
or animal that you're not trying to kill

1089
00:44:03,220 --> 00:44:00,890
and you put it in a cage with the agent

1090
00:44:06,490 --> 00:44:03,230
and see if the agent can survive and

1091
00:44:08,350 --> 00:44:06,500
breed if it's even possible for them to

1092
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:08,360
survive on something other than the

1093
00:44:13,090 --> 00:44:10,490
target host then the agent is a failure

1094
00:44:15,670 --> 00:44:13,100
and it can't be used then the second

1095
00:44:18,310 --> 00:44:15,680
test is to set up the age and in a cage

1096
00:44:21,250 --> 00:44:18,320
with the target host so it's happy and

1097
00:44:21,550 --> 00:44:21,260
healthy and breeding and then introduced

1098
00:44:24,070 --> 00:44:21,560
there

1099
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:24,080
conceivable off-target host to that

1100
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:26,450
little system to see if there's any

1101
00:44:32,710 --> 00:44:29,690
collateral damage if a viable population

1102
00:44:34,750 --> 00:44:32,720
living on a target species is capable of

1103
00:44:37,330 --> 00:44:34,760
harming the native or desirable species

1104
00:44:40,030 --> 00:44:37,340
in the new location then again it's a

1105
00:44:42,250 --> 00:44:40,040
failure so if an agent can pass tests

1106
00:44:45,370 --> 00:44:42,260
one and two and it's not capable of

1107
00:44:47,860 --> 00:44:45,380
surviving without its host or able to do

1108
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:47,870
harm to the native ecosystem and this

1109
00:44:52,570 --> 00:44:50,690
takes years of testing to assure of then

1110
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:52,580
you can apply to the Australian

1111
00:44:56,020 --> 00:44:53,930
government for permission to start

1112
00:44:58,210 --> 00:44:56,030
releasing into the wild this is the

1113
00:45:00,340 --> 00:44:58,220
hardest step they have extremely high

1114
00:45:03,130 --> 00:45:00,350
standards and sometimes agents can wait

1115
00:45:04,900 --> 00:45:03,140
in review for years before the tests are

1116
00:45:08,020 --> 00:45:04,910
accepted and the agent can be signed off

1117
00:45:10,090 --> 00:45:08,030
for release often there's a cycle of

1118
00:45:12,100 --> 00:45:10,100
retesting to satisfy the high standards

1119
00:45:16,330 --> 00:45:12,110
before you can move on to the release

1120
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:16,340
trials by this stage the agent is pretty

1121
00:45:21,490 --> 00:45:18,890
much guaranteed to be safe and in many

1122
00:45:24,580 --> 00:45:21,500
cases release trials is when the agent

1123
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:24,590
fails but in modern bio control failures

1124
00:45:28,750 --> 00:45:26,810
when a host fails to establish or fails

1125
00:45:31,990 --> 00:45:28,760
to impact on its target for whatever

1126
00:45:33,850 --> 00:45:32,000
reason if they just don't breed enough

1127
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:33,860
or survive in the wild at the levels

1128
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:36,050
necessary for success that's what a

1129
00:45:40,570 --> 00:45:37,970
failure is and you'll likely never hear

1130
00:45:43,210 --> 00:45:40,580
about it but in the cases where bio

1131
00:45:45,570 --> 00:45:43,220
control is successful the story still

1132
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:45,580
isn't very dramatic or exciting

1133
00:45:51,340 --> 00:45:48,050
successful bio control doesn't wipe out

1134
00:45:53,470 --> 00:45:51,350
a target species at best it reduces it

1135
00:45:56,050 --> 00:45:53,480
it increases the pressure on that

1136
00:45:57,880 --> 00:45:56,060
invasive species and takes away some of

1137
00:46:00,340 --> 00:45:57,890
the advantages that it has been

1138
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:00,350
benefiting from when an invasive species

1139
00:46:06,130 --> 00:46:02,930
is exposed to successful bio control

1140
00:46:07,750 --> 00:46:06,140
agent they interact they affect one

1141
00:46:10,510 --> 00:46:07,760
another and they shift their ecological

1142
00:46:12,820 --> 00:46:10,520
equilibrium back to a point where the

1143
00:46:15,580 --> 00:46:12,830
invasive species is a little less

1144
00:46:18,190 --> 00:46:15,590
successful and its impacts are reduced a

1145
00:46:19,660 --> 00:46:18,200
good example of this is mimosa in the

1146
00:46:22,420 --> 00:46:19,670
north of Australia

1147
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:22,430
it's a horrible prickly yet very pretty

1148
00:46:27,940 --> 00:46:25,490
plant which in its native habitat grows

1149
00:46:30,580 --> 00:46:27,950
to 2 or 3 metres tall and often has

1150
00:46:32,650 --> 00:46:30,590
other plants growing amongst it but in

1151
00:46:35,259 --> 00:46:32,660
Australia where there's little natural

1152
00:46:38,319 --> 00:46:35,269
predation on it it can grow to 4 or 5

1153
00:46:41,409 --> 00:46:38,329
tall form dense impenetrable thickets

1154
00:46:44,649 --> 00:46:41,419
and completely dominate vast tracts of

1155
00:46:46,659 --> 00:46:44,659
land to the exclusion of all else until

1156
00:46:48,370 --> 00:46:46,669
the very successful bio control methods

1157
00:46:50,380 --> 00:46:48,380
are introduced to the into the picture

1158
00:46:52,359 --> 00:46:50,390
and it's brought back to a more

1159
00:46:54,939 --> 00:46:52,369
reasonable height and the canopies

1160
00:46:57,909 --> 00:46:54,949
opened up to allow sunlight and space to

1161
00:46:59,979 --> 00:46:57,919
the understory and now other plants can

1162
00:47:02,999 --> 00:46:59,989
compete with it that's when you move on

1163
00:47:05,109 --> 00:47:03,009
to step four monitoring and maintenance

1164
00:47:07,209 --> 00:47:05,119
populations will always fluctuate

1165
00:47:09,909 --> 00:47:07,219
depending on seasons and conditions and

1166
00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:09,919
sometimes it's useful or even vital to

1167
00:47:15,639 --> 00:47:13,249
keep introducing biocontrol agents at

1168
00:47:17,439 --> 00:47:15,649
strategic intervals to manipulate the

1169
00:47:20,620 --> 00:47:17,449
equilibrium and keep on top of

1170
00:47:22,929 --> 00:47:20,630
populations it's sometimes even

1171
00:47:25,209 --> 00:47:22,939
necessary to water or fertilize the

1172
00:47:27,939 --> 00:47:25,219
target species during the hard times and

1173
00:47:29,889 --> 00:47:27,949
help it to survive in some areas in

1174
00:47:32,529 --> 00:47:29,899
order to preserve the biocontrol agents

1175
00:47:34,959 --> 00:47:32,539
numbers so that they're always there and

1176
00:47:37,059 --> 00:47:34,969
ready to breed back up and reinvest new

1177
00:47:38,799 --> 00:47:37,069
outbreaks when they happen this is a

1178
00:47:41,889 --> 00:47:38,809
good outcome biocontrol is not a

1179
00:47:44,109 --> 00:47:41,899
stand-alone method and it's only one of

1180
00:47:47,019 --> 00:47:44,119
multiple tools that can be used against

1181
00:47:48,939 --> 00:47:47,029
invasive species and if used right it

1182
00:47:51,009 --> 00:47:48,949
can be a significant weapon in a

1183
00:47:55,220 --> 00:47:51,019
multi-stage war against the ecological

1184
00:48:00,150 --> 00:47:58,109
so next time someone brings up cane

1185
00:48:02,849 --> 00:48:00,160
toads as their shining example of

1186
00:48:05,309 --> 00:48:02,859
houseplants goes wrong you can say well

1187
00:48:07,410 --> 00:48:05,319
actually and and show them that some

1188
00:48:09,599 --> 00:48:07,420
scientists have learned and grown a lot

1189
00:48:14,460 --> 00:48:09,609
since then and we're actually doing

1190
00:48:16,950 --> 00:48:14,470
pretty good just as a side note it's

1191
00:48:19,770 --> 00:48:16,960
interesting to consider that cane toad

1192
00:48:22,020 --> 00:48:19,780
is often brought up as the example of

1193
00:48:25,230 --> 00:48:22,030
bad ideas from the past and of invasive

1194
00:48:27,059 --> 00:48:25,240
species causing havoc and yet as far as

1195
00:48:29,910 --> 00:48:27,069
we can tell they're not actually

1196
00:48:31,950 --> 00:48:29,920
responsible for any extinctions most

1197
00:48:34,650 --> 00:48:31,960
native animal populations adapt pretty

1198
00:48:36,870 --> 00:48:34,660
quickly to their presence now compare

1199
00:48:39,569 --> 00:48:36,880
the public image of the cane toad to

1200
00:48:41,789 --> 00:48:39,579
that of the cat which is often

1201
00:48:43,079 --> 00:48:41,799
overlooked in these conversations and

1202
00:48:45,359 --> 00:48:43,089
you can see the difference that a pretty

1203
00:48:47,279 --> 00:48:45,369
face and a quirky personality can make

1204
00:49:00,779 --> 00:48:47,289
in persuading people not to pay

1205
00:49:03,359 --> 00:49:00,789
attention to the evidence hello on our

1206
00:49:05,430 --> 00:49:03,369
needle on solo swaths of dip mermans

1207
00:49:09,359 --> 00:49:05,440
been to an at low so now to skeptic zone

1208
00:49:13,109 --> 00:49:09,369
for weed to stop and Katy snide ANCA

1209
00:49:18,720 --> 00:49:13,119
a meeting from a Savannah we may be from

1210
00:49:18,730 --> 00:49:27,760
[Music]

1211
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:30,260
thank you for listening to the skeptics

1212
00:49:36,710 --> 00:49:34,290
zone and well thank you to that person

1213
00:49:38,620 --> 00:49:36,720
who commented on the YouTube channel of

1214
00:49:40,730 --> 00:49:38,630
the skeptic zone for last week's episode

1215
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:40,740
saying that they didn't listen to the

1216
00:49:45,530 --> 00:49:42,930
show because they couldn't listen to

1217
00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:45,540
those people at the paranormal

1218
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:49,170
convention talking to Maynard well you

1219
00:49:54,350 --> 00:49:51,330
know what every once or twice every year

1220
00:49:56,690 --> 00:49:54,360
I'm going to probably run interviews

1221
00:49:59,390 --> 00:49:56,700
with believers so to speak people with a

1222
00:50:02,150 --> 00:49:59,400
completely different outlook people who

1223
00:50:04,820 --> 00:50:02,160
really do think UFOs or aliens visiting

1224
00:50:08,570 --> 00:50:04,830
us and conspiracies are real or crystals

1225
00:50:10,700 --> 00:50:08,580
can actually have power or no end of

1226
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:10,710
nonsense because it's important that we

1227
00:50:15,620 --> 00:50:13,170
from time to time we hear what these

1228
00:50:17,180 --> 00:50:15,630
people have to say I've always taken

1229
00:50:20,780 --> 00:50:17,190
that approach and that's why I go to

1230
00:50:24,230 --> 00:50:20,790
mind body wallet and other Expos two

1231
00:50:25,820 --> 00:50:24,240
three four times a year to talk to these

1232
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:25,830
people hear what they have to say and it

1233
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:28,290
puts me in a much better position for

1234
00:50:34,420 --> 00:50:30,330
example many years ago I just assumed

1235
00:50:39,350 --> 00:50:34,430
that a lot of these people were lying

1236
00:50:44,060 --> 00:50:39,360
frauds fakes con artists out for a quick

1237
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:44,070
buck but of course now I don't think

1238
00:50:48,770 --> 00:50:46,410
that at all I think some tiny percentage

1239
00:50:52,010 --> 00:50:48,780
are but most of the ones I've certainly

1240
00:50:53,690 --> 00:50:52,020
talked with and met our sincere and

1241
00:50:56,780 --> 00:50:53,700
genuine and they really do believe that

1242
00:50:59,630 --> 00:50:56,790
crystals have magical powers and you can

1243
00:51:02,420 --> 00:50:59,640
determine someone's fate by looking at

1244
00:51:05,180 --> 00:51:02,430
their handwriting or or as a real and

1245
00:51:07,070 --> 00:51:05,190
and on and on it goes but it's important

1246
00:51:09,140 --> 00:51:07,080
to know this thank you to those people

1247
00:51:11,660 --> 00:51:09,150
who recently have come on board with

1248
00:51:13,250 --> 00:51:11,670
patreon now as I've mentioned over the

1249
00:51:15,020 --> 00:51:13,260
last few months on the sceptic Zone the

1250
00:51:17,180 --> 00:51:15,030
Australian dollar is going down the

1251
00:51:19,070 --> 00:51:17,190
gurgler glug glug glug glug which means

1252
00:51:21,890 --> 00:51:19,080
any contribution you make in u.s.

1253
00:51:24,410 --> 00:51:21,900
dollars and patreon and there's a link

1254
00:51:28,490 --> 00:51:24,420
at skeptics on TV goes a lot further

1255
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:28,500
here and I appreciate any contribution

1256
00:51:35,500 --> 00:51:31,410
some people even chip in a dollar a

1257
00:51:38,109 --> 00:51:35,510
month which adds up it really does

1258
00:51:40,839 --> 00:51:38,119
many people have decided to chip in five

1259
00:51:44,230 --> 00:51:40,849
or ten dollars a month and I thank you

1260
00:51:46,359 --> 00:51:44,240
very very much indeed it's money that

1261
00:51:48,460 --> 00:51:46,369
you won't miss ten dollars a month is

1262
00:51:50,230 --> 00:51:48,470
something that you'd scarcely notice but

1263
00:51:53,829 --> 00:51:50,240
it certainly adds up here at the skeptic

1264
00:51:56,500 --> 00:51:53,839
zone and congratulations to Maynard over

1265
00:51:56,819 --> 00:51:56,510
at planet Maynard over at Maynard comte

1266
00:51:59,319 --> 00:51:56,829
you

1267
00:52:03,039 --> 00:51:59,329
he and him Ferguson have just released

1268
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:03,049
episode 50 of their podcast bunga bunga

1269
00:52:06,609 --> 00:52:04,490
do you feel like something completely

1270
00:52:09,849 --> 00:52:06,619
different of the skeptic zone head over

1271
00:52:14,170 --> 00:52:09,859
to Maynard comm dot a you and also I

1272
00:52:17,710 --> 00:52:14,180
hear that the 2019 Maynard calendar is

1273
00:52:19,359 --> 00:52:17,720
on its way coming up on next week's show

1274
00:52:22,150 --> 00:52:19,369
more from skeptic on including an

1275
00:52:24,519 --> 00:52:22,160
interview with Kate Brown who was our MC

1276
00:52:27,609 --> 00:52:24,529
she's going to be talking about consumer

1277
00:52:30,250 --> 00:52:27,619
activism and other things including the

1278
00:52:32,019 --> 00:52:30,260
pink tax but for this week

1279
00:52:38,980 --> 00:52:32,029
this is Richard Saunders signing off

1280
00:52:41,049 --> 00:52:38,990
from Sydney Australia you've been

1281
00:52:46,509 --> 00:52:41,059
listening to the skeptic zone podcast

1282
00:52:49,779 --> 00:52:46,519
please visit our website at WWE TV for

1283
00:52:53,279 --> 00:52:49,789
shownotes contacts and to access the bat

1284
00:52:55,960 --> 00:52:53,289
catalog of episodes going back to 2008

1285
00:52:59,259 --> 00:52:55,970
you can follow the skeptic zone podcast

1286
00:53:01,539 --> 00:52:59,269
on twitter at skeptic zone visit our

1287
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:01,549
facebook page or leave a review on

1288
00:53:05,109 --> 00:53:02,410
itunes

1289
00:53:08,470 --> 00:53:05,119
you can also support the skeptic zone

1290
00:53:11,190 --> 00:53:08,480
via patreon or PayPal the skeptic zone

1291
00:53:13,569 --> 00:53:11,200
podcast is an independent production

1292
00:53:15,730 --> 00:53:13,579
reviews and opinions expressed on the

1293
00:53:18,069 --> 00:53:15,740
skeptic zone and not necessarily those

1294
00:53:19,850 --> 00:53:18,079
of Australian skeptics or any other

1295
00:53:31,140 --> 00:53:19,860
skeptical organisation

1296
00:53:39,250 --> 00:53:37,390
okay what's that noise okay I'm ending

1297
00:53:44,830 --> 00:53:39,260
it now we just wait here comes a cat

1298
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:44,840
it's not it's the end of this show it's

1299
00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:46,970
okay that is the end of the show Susan

1300
00:53:50,740 --> 00:53:48,530
go Bex joining me here folks at the end

1301
00:53:52,270 --> 00:53:50,750
of the show with her cat another

1302
00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:52,280
skeptical cat on the other side of the

1303
00:53:56,010 --> 00:53:54,050
planet

1304
00:53:58,710 --> 00:53:56,020
oh good heavens

1305
00:54:01,330 --> 00:53:58,720
does that cat want dinner or something

1306
00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:01,340
he just wants attention attention

1307
00:54:05,890 --> 00:54:03,890
anyway Susan before me I have a ten

1308
00:54:07,780 --> 00:54:05,900
sided die folks at home and Susan over

1309
00:54:09,490 --> 00:54:07,790
there in California let's play along in

1310
00:54:12,310 --> 00:54:09,500
a moment I'm going to roll it so use

1311
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:12,320
your use your mystical energies your

1312
00:54:18,790 --> 00:54:14,930
psychic prediction powers Susan what

1313
00:54:21,390 --> 00:54:18,800
number do you see coming up five okay

1314
00:54:28,180 --> 00:54:25,900
seven hmm let's try it again

1315
00:54:32,790 --> 00:54:28,190
use your prediction power everybody and

1316
00:54:34,930 --> 00:54:32,800
Susan what do you see five all right

1317
00:54:39,130 --> 00:54:34,940
don't fell off the table he always does

1318
00:54:42,610 --> 00:54:39,140
that all right folks this is not a setup

1319
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:42,620
it's five yeah I should video this just

1320
00:54:47,370 --> 00:54:44,810
so everybody can see this is absolutely

1321
00:54:51,190 --> 00:54:47,380
honest this is not a setup seven five

1322
00:54:52,990 --> 00:54:51,200
okay Susan one more number I think it's

1323
00:54:55,210 --> 00:54:53,000
gonna be five again I think and I'll

1324
00:55:00,660 --> 00:54:55,220
give it a good rattle here we go

1325
00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:00,670
and the last number is one so folks

1326
00:55:07,120 --> 00:55:04,610
seven five and one and Susan got one out

1327
00:55:08,650 --> 00:55:07,130
of three well that's pretty good that's